the excitement begins!
August 12th, 2008 by Ψ*Ψ…By that I mean grad school applications are coming online.[1] Granted, this probably isn’t exciting for many CBC readers, but it is for me! Contrary to some assumptions, I’m not a PhD student, but hopefully that will change next fall. It’s nice to be only working now and not taking classes–I can work on applications while the autosampler runs.
So, open thread time: Anyone else applying for Fall 09? Any organic materials people looking for an opportunity for blatant self-promotion? (Whiny “is-my-GRE-score-good-enough” comments will draw the ire of the ninjas. Save that crap for your pre-med friends!)
[1] I wouldn’t know this if I weren’t obsessive enough to check pretty much every day.
[2] I also wouldn’t be posting this if my car’s transmission were in working order. Needless to say, I’m kinda preoccupied lately, and writing a thoughtful lit post probably isn’t gonna happen until my little Focus is alive and well again. :,(
I also made the incorrect assumption that you were a grad student. Wow, you’re getting on this early, I slacked til October/November.
As for GRE’s; fuck the GRE’s.
Well…I graduated a semester late, so most of my friends are gone already or are leaving now…which is extra motivation. I’m dying to leave and get on with my life!
fuck the GRE’s
IAWTC. Especially the subject test.
With a good GRE, schools compete for you – fly you to visit, offer you a bigger TA or even “fellowship” money. I was paid well more than any other entering grad student in my class. Yes, it’s capitalistic, but grad student lifestyles are not the most lavish and extra money matters if it determines living in a dump with a houseful of less-than-desirables or only splitting a decent apartment (or having one on your own!) – plus your end-of-the-month need to eat sparsely and very cheaply is less often. Instead you can go out for pizza and beer anytime you want to.
Yay! Exciting times! Choosing a grad school is a fun process…free food and free liquor abound (eventually…after slogging through the application process…remember when filling those out that free stuff is on the horizon).
PS UIUC rules.
I’m Excimer, and I support this message.
Could always trycome to lill old NZ…
http://www.chem.canterbury.ac.nz/people/steel.shtml
Whoa, his stuff is cool! I can think of a few things I’d like to do to with of those structures.
but the common lab chemicals come there by boat. Instad of common 3 days delivery time you wait like 4 weeks for your stuff – if you are lucky.
It’s not quite that bad, if you’ve planned ahead (but who really does that…) there’s a decent stockpile, but if you run out at the wrong time it can really ruin your day…
or your month…
Early is better. October/ November is already late enough that some slots at good schools are filling up. Yes, schools have incoming-class quotas and limits on TA and RA monies. If you’re a red-hot and apply early, they will accept and offer you a slot and lots of money. Later applicants get the more cautious treatment/ It often takes those red-hot students a month or two to decide. You end up not getting a shot at that slot or money, even if they eventually decide to go elsewhere.
Yes, you get wined and dined, flown to the campuses – if you are a red hot. One big criterion schools use is the GRE, especially the specialized one in chemistry (or whatever field you are aiming at). It outweighs your GPA! What courses you took is another strong measure. If you took lots of advanced courses, good. If not, bad.
Good luck on applying and the process!
I think things have changed, John. Here, at least, I don’t think they even look at applications until the deadline. Nowhere I applied to sent out acceptance/rejection letters until January, and I sent out my apps in October- most places didn’t even have theirs up until September. And if you get accepted, they’ll pay to fly you out to get wined and dined. You don’t have to be red hot, just good enough to get in.
And the GRE is about the last thing chemistry programs care about… if you’re a domestic student. If you’re international then it has much more weight put on it, since they have no other means by which to judge your academic ability. Strong letters of rec, grades in classes (p-chem is a big one), and research experience weigh much more strongly.
I am basing this on recent discussions (in the past half-dozen years) with chemistry department chairs throughout the US.
Many departments start offering in mid-December. So if you apply in November, you’re behind others who apply in September and October. The Since the application period is compressed, waiting leave you behind a lot of people who apply earlier. It is a very swkewed distribution as far as applications date. Anyone who waits until after the New Year is limiting her or his chances.
The GRE might not matter as much in getting in, after entering classes are often a few dozen. But it is one of the determiners in what the student gets offered. Like I said, especially if the chemistry one is high. No scholl wants to chance it on a student who comes in with a great GPA and does so poorly on the entrance/ qualifying exams that the first year is mainly spent taking organic, inorganic, physical, analytical eeview courses. They want the red hot student who will be able to start upper-level classes right off and be doing research within that first year.
Afterall, what do they have to go on before you get an offer? GPA means little since curriculae differ and grading is totally arbitrary. A 3.8 at one school, might be the same as a 3.4 at another, even for ACS-accredited bachelors programs. Schools have a finite amount of money and they give different levels of TA or more RA over TA or fellowships as discretionary. The better your chemistry GRE, the more likely you are to get offered more and the more competition there is between schools to get you.
Depends on what schools you apply to also. Anyone who gets accepted to a state school gets flown out and “wined and dined” with all expenses paid. Private institutions like Harvard are a bit more elitist and will only pay a small portion of your expenses. If you have a 3.5 or above GPA and a decent GRE you’ll get in ANYWHERE (Harvard, Cal Tech, Berkeley, Stanford, etc..). Schools are desperate for TA’s and typically over-accept incoming students knowing that many will drop out after their first year. Just remember that you can make a name for yourself at any institution if you work hard and attempt to stand out from your peers.
As for schools giving more money to more promising students, it’s BS. I was offered extra stipends because of my records and in the end I decided to go somewhere that gives everyone a clean slate starting out. Being the best undergraduate student does not equate to being a good graduate student. they are completely different games. Schools should (and most do) give extra incentive to hard working grad students after they’ve been accepted and show high performance levels in grad school, not before.
The transmission in your Ford Focus died? That what happens when you buy a Ford. Cheap, disposable, and planned obsolescence are all included at no extra change…until it dies. Found On Road Dead. Fix Or Repair Daily. I can’t poke too much fun though. My other car is a bicycle. Right now you might be thinking Fuck Off, Reading Dumbass and I wouldn’t blame you.
“You drive a Ford? You know what Ford stands for- Fix It Again, Tony.”
“That’s a Fiat, Dale.”
(one of my favorite king of the hill lines)
Sadly, yes. 5 years and 35k miles, and a dead transmission. I can’t complain too much, though…it has had no other problems and holds up like a freaking tank in collisions. And I need a freaking tank. Hopefully, within a year, my other car will be a bike or a bus and I can avoid worrying so much about hitting invisible vehicles and driving my insurance rates ever higher…
My first car, old Accord, the transmission died on me at 100k miles. I brought it (with diifficulties) to a transmission shop, they let me sign paper that I let them investigate and cover the cost of the inspection. When the engine was already taken out and the transmission was taken appart into a pile of thousand black greasy pieces on a workbench they presented me with a proposal – $2,300 to rebuilt it – which at the time (1994) was more than my monthly salary before taxes.
I figured this was a scam pulled on unsuspecting foreigner so I got hold of some very hispanic junkyard dudes (it was in Tucson AZ) and they offered to sell me working transmission re-assembled from parts, for $650 but they wantem my broken disassembled one in returns, for its parts.
The robber-fellows in the transmission shop that held my car for ransom did not like it at all and they refused to give me my own transmission back so I went to the office of their manager and called police from his phone, about theft of my car parts and the blackmail – at which point they re-considered. As I was pushing my black pile of transmission pieces into a large box the boss came to me and offered a discount – $1,800 (five hundred less on the labor!) if I stayed with them. Instead, I got the junkyard- re-built one, and had it put in, and the complete cost was below $1,400. The junkyard transmission worked fine ever after for another hundred thousand miles.
I considered going that route–there’s one currently listed for sale in my area, actually–but there are no automatic transmission mechanics among my friends and family. Dad was (is? has been?) a mechanic for many years, and can still fix most things (automotive or not), but that’s not one of them. At least he was able to fix the exhaust leak (which was a minor concern, but I was losing vacuum like crazy).
In 1989 my dad bought a 1986 Toyota Camry. That thing was incredible! It needed a new clutch (it was a 5-speed manual transmission) at 275,000 km (170,000 miles) and that was the only major repair it ever needed. The thing just kept going and going and going. He finally sold it around 2001 I think and it had over 378,000 km (235,000 miles) on it. I think he sold it because he was bored with it and the driver’s seat was completely worn out. Now there is the definition of a good car- the first thing that really bothers you when it wears out is the SEAT!
It still kills me that he sold it to some local teenager. I would have bought it from him just to see how long it would last.
this is why my next car will probably be a toyota
If I may get a word in here, consider Chevrolet. The Cobalt gets bomb-ass gas mileage, and I hear it’s a pretty solid car. Not sure about the price though…
How is its reliability? The Cavalier was crap (at least for a while -92-99) but I don’t know crap about the Cobalt. My wife has an Aveo, and it’s OK, but I don’t know about the long term.
In 2000, I bought a 1996 Corolla wagon with 65000 miles on it for $6500. It has lasted me through grad school, my postdoc, and now the first few years of my industrial position. I had to replace the break rotors and made some other very minor repairs. Let’s say I spent a total of $9000 on it, including purchase cost. I’ve had it for about 100 months now, so my car price expenditure is at ~$90/month. I’d say that’s pretty good. I haven’t changed the oil in it for 18 months now. I’m kind of seeing how long it will go. It’s a little like a Seinfeld episode, only w/ a different fluid.
Corolla, you say? I’m not surprised. Those things are close to immortal.
Change the oil, though! It’s quick and not terribly expensive, especially if you DIY. (Dad would disown me if I went to a Valvoline, I think.)
Yep, I’m also going to be applying for fall ‘09. The missus and I are looking for a school that’ll accept the both of us, I’m chem and looking to go organic materials, she’s a psych and looking for a social psychology program. We’re also thinking of somewhere in the northeast, so that if we don’t get into the same school, there’s quite a few around so that we can still live together and both go to school.
Good luck with your apps!
Yay organic materials! The trouble I’ve had is that relatively few departments are intensely focused on our field (as opposed to natural products or methodology).
Good luck!
Grad School ‘09!! WOOOT!
I was wondering if anyone would accept an inorganic chemist with a mediocre GRE school and a mediocre grade in a top tier undergraduate institution.
Let the waiting game begins.
Where are you applying to, m’dear?
A good strategy is to list schools you’d like to go to. Sub-divide them into “hard to get intoi”, “average to get into”, and “easy to get into”. Apply to one or two of the latter as your insurance, unless you have the time to wait for another annual cycle. Do not just apply to the cream of the crop, unless you are like to get in – great network where somebody can put a word in for you, great GPA with lots of tough clesses, and a great GRE.
Those top-level schools get flooded by applications and they winnow out anyone who looks weak. Period, no review, no debate. If you have hundreds of applications for 25 to 50 slots, you cannot spend time on looking at every candidate closely (although some professors on applications committees do that, it is a rare few because this is both a bureaucratic task – which professors hate – and it has nothing directly to do with getting their research done.
Yay for mediocre grades! I’m probably right there with you–my GRE is fine, but my undergrad institution is pretty far from top-tier.
SOMEONE out there has to take us, right?
My list: Columbia, UCSB, Northwestern, Georgia Tech. What’s yours?
I’m pretty sure I got admitted to the chemistry Ph.D. program I ended up attending since I wasn’t actually a chemist (my undergrad was in biochem/biophysics, and that’s what I ended up doing in grad school anyway). So I’m guessing they were forgiving about my unstellar chemistry subject GRE score since I hadn’t taken any inorganic. Although the fact I did take graduate quantum as an undergrad may have helped my case a bit.
P.S. – If you get a wild hair in your eye and decide to do NMR in grad school, then I might be of assistance….
NMR? Unlikely…If I ever give up synthesis to be an instrument goddess, x-rays will be involved.
The NMR-advice offer still stands (either for you or anyone who may lurk on this blog)!
Funnily enough, I may yet end up doing stuff with x-rays (and neutrons, am v. excited about getting to do things with neutrons), but not crystallography. Given the snark I used to direct at protein crystallographers, I’m not sure I could withstand the shock to my system if I joined their ranks.
A suggestion for you:
Aim as high as you possibly can. I batted 3 for 3, and I only wish it was more like 10 for 20. No one ever told me this essential piece of information when I was an undergrad. “Better,” “more known” schools open more doors for you in the future (along with more papers).
Got a job rejection the other day from a cute company that said, in so many words, “even though your credentials are excellent, we really only want applicants from Harvard, MIT, SCRIPPS Cali, or in some cases Texas–they make our company look much better than your school.”
I might be better off starting my own company.
P.S. Sorry if that offended any of your UIUC peeps; nothin’ but love for ya.
P.S. My boss is looking for grad students to start immediately. Let me know if you’re interested! (Goes for anyone on the board)
The big caveat is that if you work for a big name, even if she or he is at a school other than Ivy League, MIT, Caltech, Stanford, et alia. A well-known name in a field, one with lots of awards and numerous highly successful progeny is the biggest trump card. I still have people who see my CV say “Oh you one of Buck Rogers’ students”. That comes from his winning almost every analytical award, putting out around a hundred PhDs, uncounted postdocs, and around 300 papers.
Other than that, he claimed his most famous act might have been pursuading Fred McLafferty to go from industry to Cornell.
(Academic genealogies are interesting to some. According to David Hercules – another student via Rogers, and Fred Lytle – a student of a Rogers’ student, this lineage goes back through Jusus von Liegig and Antoine Lavoisier.)
That would be my end goal. Hire a bunch of very competent people who got rejected from bigger companies because their school wasn’t PR friendly, then crush those companies in competition. A sort of Revenge of the Nerds, MBA style.
Who’s with me?!
(You just have to wait until I graduate- RSN)
Whoowee!
I got a good GRE and still went to a so-so school. I worked for a no-name who turned out to be really good (right, Ψ*Ψ ?) I would not suggest this route (in my case, wife and kid and family nearby trumped career concerns), but I would say that it won’t stop you from being productive if you work for the right person, and you can still get a good post doc with good papers (I did time at a national lab, which was sweeet.)
But the idea of getting a bunch of bad news bears and driving the competition into the ground is a great idea. Mother nature could give a rat’s ass about your pedigree, and going to Hahvad or MIT won’t save you in industry or academia if you are a dipshit. I saw (rather minor) dipshittery from Ivy grads mean no tenure at my so-so school for people who worked for Nobel laureates…
There are no guarantees, kids. Go to the best school you can. Work hard for a good boss on a project that will make some noise. And don’t be a prick or a dipshit. Even academics and science are, at their core, all about people.
So glad I joined this lab! If I hadn’t, chances are I wouldn’t be applying anywhere at all.
I don’t understand why some people never get it: If you’re an asshole, no one will want to work with you, even if you are brilliant. (And if you do think you’re brilliant, chemistry is probably a bad career choice, as it will prove you wrong on a daily basis if you’re doing it right.)
That is one of the core themes in my career management book, scientists are people and good people get further along than bad people of similar or slightly better talents.
Brilliance in chemistry is recognizing the wrong quicker, adjusting more often and in more ways, and never seeing negative results as failures. Those are boundary conditions on your theory and lead to new paths. Recognizing those things and the unexpected is what a lot call serendipity, but it is really being more observent and curious than others.
“If you’re an asshole, no one will want to work with you, even if you are brilliant. (And if you do think you’re brilliant, chemistry is probably a bad career choice, as it will prove you wrong on a daily basis if you’re doing it right.)”
Two words: Elias Corey
People who have survived his research group talk about him like the second coming of Christ. By contrast, I’ve heard stories about how if you’re not putting out good enough work, fast enough (even if it’s honest), you may find yourself blacklisted for a month (where he won’t talk to you) or worse the books that were once on your desk now boxed up. Yes, it happens.
That said, most synth chemists want to work for him because he’s the best. At some point, it doesn’t matter how big of a prick the PI can be, it’s all about name recognition.
If only there were an XKCD style graph that indicates the level of prikishness against competence against success.
Just a few random comments from a lurker (and an asst prof at a liberal arts college):
- GRE’s do matter. They may not have been such a big deal when I was applying (except good scores = more money) but that has changed. It is the only ruler that grad schools have to compare students from different school. I speak from experience. A student from my school with 4 yrs of research, a good GPA and not good GREs only got into one of seven schools they applied to.
- Don’t under estimate the personal connection. Did one of your profs do a postdoc with someone at a school you are interested in? Have them place a call for you. Use any connection that you have. It WILL make a difference.
Good luck!!
Hopefully GRE scores will outweigh GPA in some cases. :,(
If I could get away with it, I’d just send a CV and GREs and “forget” the transcript.
Then again, if I could get away with THAT, I’d also “forget” the application fee.
Inside baseball for Kentucky people:
Name that professor-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2_m4LYAcdI&eurl=http://ace.mu.nu/
I give, though I have suspicions… Who is it?
TESTA HAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes. He appeared to me in a dream dressed like that (or an acid trip, maybe…) He came bearing the message that I should not have been so contemptuous of biochemistry.
Frankly, I was about to chase him, his fringe, and his Harry Reems stache out of my dream/hallucination, but then the chicks dressed like Native Americans showed up, and I figured, eh, RNA ain’t so bad…
While I agree with the latter comment (it’s not what you know, it’s who), any school that bases their decision solely on GRE scores deserves the kind of students they get.
You have to differentiate the GRE scores and how they are used. The general ones are cutoff oriented. If you sucked on those, you’re not getting accepted by many schools. If you did in the average to good range, let’s say for argument’s sake 35 to 80 percentile, you get offers. It how much higher than 80 that gets noticed, which gets you considered for more money. If you score higher on those and have a good chemistry one, you get some more. If you blew all the general ones and the chemistry one away, greater than 95 on them all, every grad school in the US will be trying to get you.
The chemistry one counts a lot because if you do well on it, it is highly likely that you can start as a grad student as soon as you walk in the building. It might not be perfect, but how can a school tell you can learn and think better than the other three or four hundred students? For you, you’re at one of those schools that has to do that rigorously to keep up the flow of talent to top-level professors. If UIUC did not do this, I am interested in how they assessed you. They cannot fly everyone that applies there to Illinois and interview them, a more ideal way.
It is analogous to athletic scholarships. You might be a high school star, but what does that mean to the BCS-level school in football? They have you run against a stop watch, do some weights, etc. to see skills. If you run a 5 second time for 40 yards, you are toast. Period. But if you run a 4.3 second time, every school wants you.
Thanks for the clarification of my comment. Much more eloquant (and helpful) but what I meant to say!
Any i
“in” you can find is helpful. A contact, a professor who is an alumnus or former post-doc, contact at a conference. These things are decided, ultimately, by a committee of professors. They generally each do a quick winnowing – “obvious” people who are not strong candidates….low GPA with few upper-level courses, low GREs, a school not know as putting out good undergraduates (the Harvey Mudds of the academic world do prove that small schools can put out good prospects), etc. Them these professors meet, agree on ones not to consider, agree on “obvious” strong candidates, and them the discussion on everyone else begins. They have a set number of openings and usually offer only a moderate number more than that, know not all will accept and that they cannot un-offer if too many accept.
This discussing includes things like if you did undergrad research and published or letters of recommendation external or internal to the department. If you are lucky enough to have a colleague of theirs go to bat for you, you do have a better chance.
Forgive me being an ignorant Kiwi, but what’s this GRE thing?
Sort of an entrance exam for graduate school. It hearkens back to the early 20th century idea that one can measure, through standardized, ‘objective’ multiple choice and essay tests, something akin to general intelligence.
The acronym means “Graduate Record Examination”.
Nice. Glad I missed that
I once referred to it as a waste of 3 hours of my life.
We had minimum GRE scores to attain before “beginning” grad school. If you were below a certain score, you were put on academic probation for the first year with the understanding that you’d keep your grades as high as possible.
Here it’s a lot easier- all you need is a first class honours/a 2-1 and you’re into a PhD program as long as there’s a spot. Which there generally is : )
Feck. I thought I was replying to the comment above… (slow clap)
A 2-1 is how I got into my PhD program, although I am still waiting for the fame and fortune.
Bottom line is that if you work hard and get along well with and help others you’ll succeed in graduate school.
If you feel entitled to winning awards you won’t win any. If you are an asshole people won’t want to help you. If you freak out everyday no one will want to work next to you. If you are an opportunist your opportunities will dry up.
What actually helps you the most in finding a job after graduate school is not necessarily pedigree, number of papers, or awards. All of these things require hard work to achieve but also require a bit of luck as well (i.e. being on the right project or the right collaboration at the right time). The most important part of an application package are those 3 letters of recommendation. If your advisor and 2 other faculty write really good things about your character, independence, and abilities as a scientist and/or educator, others will notice.
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